Mobile Dome

topic posted Thu, May 24, 2007 - 3:11 PM by  Badger
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Well I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag so soon, but I need the advice. :)

I'm in the planning stages for a self powered, mobile dome (3freq, 35ft dia). I've already worked out how to stablize the bottom so it won't "taco", but the other thread about "Dome failure" and a bare dome getting rolled by the wind has got me worried about this thing getting tipped over.

Thoughts, math, advice, solutions anyone?

Thanks,
Badger
posted by:
Badger
SF Bay Area
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  • Re: Mobile Dome

    Tue, May 29, 2007 - 3:03 AM
    Desertdomes.com

    at least 1" metal tube or greater.

    Contact a fence making company and get the 24 ft lenghts of tube to cut from to minimize waste.

    No PVC.

    Grade 8 bolts

    cool?


    ok

    M
    • Re: Mobile Dome

      Tue, May 29, 2007 - 11:05 AM
      No PVC for sure.. lol
      Grade 8's... good point.
      I was thinking 1" to 1.25" EMT. Did the math for 10' lengths to cut the waste down to a couple inches.
      Maybe drop it from a 5/8 down to a 3/8 dome to lower the wind profile.

      All in all, not worried about making it strong enough, but I am worried about it getting blown over since it can't be staked down like a normal dome. Hmm... perhaps some outriggers...
      • Re: Mobile Dome

        Tue, May 29, 2007 - 1:17 PM
        What are you using for a Chassis? are you attaching it to some sort of truck? or is it on casters o some kind. If it's a truck, that might be all the weight you need to hold it down.

        Out riggers sound like a good idea. something that can be stkaed in when it's in place.
        • Re: Mobile Dome

          Tue, May 29, 2007 - 2:27 PM
          Casters around the edge and some under the flooring. One main drive wheel/motor in the "front".
          Debating shade cover that will let the majority of the wind pass or fully covered to force the wind around.
          I'll post a rough pic in here. With the "pods", this thing should be pretty heavy.
          • Re: Mobile Dome

            Sun, June 3, 2007 - 3:53 PM
            Are you going to have this on the playa? Strong winds there, my friend.

            Wind/flipping is a very serious concern. Noodling with the % coverage will not help you that much, you need to figure out a clever/tricky cover profile that will work with the wind the way you want. Doing actual experiments (before show time) will be very helpful. Play with some models and a desk fan?

            Just making a guess here, but if a good portion of the top is open you might avoid the worst of the bernouli principle effects-- basically, wind passing over a curved object creating low pressure on top, high pressure on bottom, that's how planes fly, and voila, there goes the dome.

            Perhaps some sort of flexible cover, attach with bungies? that can give a bit, change the airflow profile with different levels of pressure...?
            • Re: Mobile Dome

              Mon, June 4, 2007 - 12:48 PM
              Yes, this is planned for the playa. Very aware of the winds, thus this thread. :)

              I was playing with the idea of fully covered as vs shade covering (to let wind through) to avoid a parachute effect.

              Ah yes, damn Bernouli and his effect. ;) Plane wings need the air going above AND below to create the pressure difference. Problem is that I have no way of completely keeping the wind from going under the flooring, so I'd be driving around a "dome-wing" of sorts.

              Not sure an open top wil solve the issue because then I'm back to the "sail" problem, but all this talk of airfoils and wings gives me an idea.
              Picture a weather vane, always pointing into the wind. Now add a dragster type airfoil that keeps it from taking off. The wind would blow, the vane would point into the wind and the airfoil would provide a downward force. Hmmm.. between that and outriggers, that may just work.

              Time to build a model. ;)
              • Re: dragster airfoil

                Mon, June 4, 2007 - 5:53 PM
                This is creative and seemingly sound reasoning. I look forward to your model!

                -- Clown
                • Re: dragster airfoil

                  Tue, June 5, 2007 - 9:54 AM
                  I'll hopfully have a model built soon. Plus then I can test my "petal airbrake" idea (see other long post).
                  For now I just have the drawing in the pics section of this beast. ;D
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: dragster airfoil

                    Thu, June 7, 2007 - 3:44 PM
                    Nice pic! Those extrusions from the side might be good for open "windows" with awnings, which if they allowed a cross breeze would further foil the wind as well as help cool the dome.

                    Yes, I was saying that it might not be bernouli that tornadoed houses, thanks for the erudite expansion :-)
                    • Re: dragster airfoil

                      Thu, June 7, 2007 - 4:57 PM
                      Thanks. I basicly "borrowed" the assembly pic from Desert Domes and drew in the pods. The really nice thing with the pods is that I cut out the need for the "A" length struts and only need 2 sizes rather that the nomal 3 sizes for a 3v dome. I'm still debating making the 1v pods "domes" or full "spheres". That will get figured out when I build the model as well. :-)

                      Ahhh.. hehe My bad. I misunderstood you comment about the tornadoes. :-)
              • Re: Mobile Dome

                Tue, June 5, 2007 - 6:12 AM
                Great idea! I am glad to hear that my worry was unjustified :-)

                FWIW, the air doesn't need to go under something for someone like Bernouli, if not the man himself, to get you.

                Houses flying through the air from tornadoes happen because, even though the air is not going under the house, the air inside the house is effectively under the house, and when the air pressure in the house exceeds that outside pressure by enough, it's you're not in Kansas anymore time.

                Which makes me think that maybe the fact that the air is going under your mobile dome might actually help you out a wee bit?
                • Re: Mobile Dome

                  Tue, June 5, 2007 - 9:51 AM
                  After a conversation with a friend last night, I've revised the "airbrake/flap" idea to get rid of the troublesome round track and the "weathervane" completely.
                  The new idea looks something like a flower. Picture the dome with petals around it. When the wind hits from a side, those petals (which are already pointed up slightly) are forced into a upward position and form a flap like the airbreaks on a plane wing. The petals in the other side of the dome of course stay in their rest position and also catch the wind comming over the dome creating even more downward force. All automatic and very few moving parts that can fail (unlike the tracked "weathervane" idea from before). A spring pushs the petal back down enough for gravity to kick in to return the petal to it's rest position.

                  Plus I just love the irony of using the wind power to work against the wind itself. ;) lol

                  Houses fly through the air in a tornado due to be ripped apart from the inside out. The low pressure center of the vortex causes the relative higher pressure still in the house to push out. A few breaks here and there and the wind pushing does the rest. Houses aren't built to be blown up like balloons. :D

                  I think you may be misreading Bernoulli a bit:
                  "The Bernoulli principle is expressed by an equation (known as Bernoulli’s equation) which states that for a given volume of fluid, the total energy remains constant due to the principle of the conservation of energy. This means that When a fluid is in relative motion, the energy is split into the ‘parts’. The sum of these parts will not exceed a certain value which will remain constant as long as the external conditions do not change."
                  -From www.forumula1.net/2006/f1/f...rodynamics

                  Also from Wikipedia:
                  "It may be misunderstood to be that a change in velocity simply causes a change in pressure; the Bernoulli principle does not make any such statement."

                  To create lift, the air must be split (top and bottom of a wind or dome in this case). The air going over the top must travel faster than the air going under due to the longer distance. The faster moving air is, by Bernoulli, now of lower pressure that the slower air (under the dome). The object (dome) being between these two pressure areas is forced towards the lower pressure are to rebalance the presssures (lift).
                  Air simply traveling over a bump (dome) does not create any pressure differences as far as any lift goes. The wind is simply directed around the bump. At that point your only worry is direct sideways forces from the wind hitting the object (sailing).

                  The wind under the dome is my curse. I should be able to cut most of it out with a "skirt" of sorts, it just can't drag as that would cause way too much dust to get kicked up. ;)

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