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Hello all, I see this group is not very active but I had some questions I was hoping we could get some insight into.
We are building a 32' 4v dome out of 3/4 EMT for our local burn event this summer (flipside) and were wondering how other people with similarly large domes erected their structures. Our current plan is to rent an 18' lift/hoist (something like the Genie SLC-18) and build the dome top-down while raising the assembled part up the hoist. Building a dome of this size bottom-up does not seem at all practical unless you had lots of ladders, people, and time. I was thinking about constructing a flagpole type thing with 4x4 posts and guy lines and block&tackle, but my campmate was worried about the stability and safety factor. The lift seems like the "proper" solution but it costs money and we figured someone else may have come up with a clever way to raise a 500 pound dome 15-20 feet in the air. So there it is - How do y'all build your big-ass domes? I am also wondering about custom coverings, using parachutes or tarps for covering large domes - specifically, how resistant are rip-stop nylon chutes to abrading on the sharp edges of the struts? I figured that the first good wind storm would cause the chute to snag on the edges and destroy itself very quickly. Our plan to counter this was to round off the sharp ends with a bench grinder. As far as a custom-sewn cover, do people prefer an icosahedron-shaped cover (approximating the big triangles in the icosahedron) or a parachute-style cover with thin strips of fabric that get wider at the base to form a dome shape?
This is unknown territory for us, so we would appreciate any helpful insight. Thanks!
We are building a 32' 4v dome out of 3/4 EMT for our local burn event this summer (flipside) and were wondering how other people with similarly large domes erected their structures. Our current plan is to rent an 18' lift/hoist (something like the Genie SLC-18) and build the dome top-down while raising the assembled part up the hoist. Building a dome of this size bottom-up does not seem at all practical unless you had lots of ladders, people, and time. I was thinking about constructing a flagpole type thing with 4x4 posts and guy lines and block&tackle, but my campmate was worried about the stability and safety factor. The lift seems like the "proper" solution but it costs money and we figured someone else may have come up with a clever way to raise a 500 pound dome 15-20 feet in the air. So there it is - How do y'all build your big-ass domes? I am also wondering about custom coverings, using parachutes or tarps for covering large domes - specifically, how resistant are rip-stop nylon chutes to abrading on the sharp edges of the struts? I figured that the first good wind storm would cause the chute to snag on the edges and destroy itself very quickly. Our plan to counter this was to round off the sharp ends with a bench grinder. As far as a custom-sewn cover, do people prefer an icosahedron-shaped cover (approximating the big triangles in the icosahedron) or a parachute-style cover with thin strips of fabric that get wider at the base to form a dome shape?
This is unknown territory for us, so we would appreciate any helpful insight. Thanks!
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Re: Raising a big dome
Wed, February 27, 2008 - 6:49 PMWell I can only tell you what I have done and what worked for us.
I have both a 21' 4v 3/4 EMT dome and a 40' 4v 1 5/8" fencepost dome. The pics are up on this sight.
I would highly recommend taking a grinder to the ends after it is cut smashed and drilled. Not only will it be better on the cover but you will cut the shit out of your self putting it together if the ends are not ground down. You will find that out before you even get done making the struts.
I put both the domes together from the bottom up. The 21' we use 2, 6' ladders to put it together and the big one we use 20' of scaffolding on wheels to put it up. The big one 40' takes 4 people 8 hours to put up but the small one you can do it with 2 people in 2 1/2 hours.
I helped the camp next to us put up a 32' 4v 3/4 EMT dome and they had about 15 people pick it up. We would bolt all of the struts on and then they would pick it up and the struts would swing down and we would bolt on some more. I like the bottom up method better because I am all about self reliance and I could put it together by my self that way it just would take forever.
Let me know if I can help in any way.
Bob
www.myspace.com/bobfj40
www.TikiFuckos.org
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Re: Raising a big dome
Fri, February 29, 2008 - 1:01 PMI've never built a 4v, but I built a 28' 2v. Your 32' dome will have its top center bolt 16' off the ground. I think you could probably build it bottom up with ladders. We always connect the top five struts that meet at the center bolt and lift the combo up, then connect each strut to its vertex. That way we don't have to reach quite as high. For a 4v you may find that you can connect several struts together into subassemblies and lift the assembly up and connect it. This may be less tedious than connecting each strut one-at-a-time. I've talked to people who build 3v and 4v domes that way, even if they aren't terribly tall domes. It just takes less time, and more people can help by putting the small assemblies together on the ground.
I realize that building top down is appealing, but it does require a hoist or scissors lift. And, you have a heavy thing lifted in the air, with all the intrinsic risk that entails. Ladders are also somewhat risky, but if you have a team, you can assign one person to stabilize each ladder to ensure it doesn't topple with someone on it.
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Re: Raising a big dome
Sat, March 1, 2008 - 3:07 AMRE covers:
We never had any problems with a ripstop parachute over unground corners on our 3v 3/5 22' diameter hand hack-sawed dome struts, nor did anyone ever cut themselves.
A parachute is not going to block all of your sun-- it will still get hot inside. Ideally you want two layers of cover, the lower waterproof if there is chance of rain, and the top with holes in it to let built up heat out. Barring or in addition to that, a hole in the top to let out hot air is good. A slit from the bottom to the top also good, a bottom layer that can be rolled up to generate breeze also good.
Used billboard material seems like a good way to go, though I haven't used it yet.
The best custom cover I saw (and it was on on a big dome, 40 plus feet) came in 6 segments. There were 5 even segments around the perimeter, but they did not go all the way to the top, the top few layers of hexes/pentagons was the sixth segment. The typical configuration of the covers was 4 out of 5 around the outside, and the top. That let in light and air, while providing lots of shelter. It was some kind of water resistant canvas material with velcro on the edges. Really really sweet.
I'd also like to mention, if you don't want to spend the money on EMT and also have something that a crew of people can lift much easier, that you can use pvc for your struts, and just cut little metal tabs that stick in the ends of the pvc, with a bolt throught the end to secure them. PM me if this doesn't make sense, or you want more details, as tribe is totally arsed for me right now, have to access through a proxy server... -
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Re: Raising a big dome
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 12:14 PMI don't want to be too negative, but in a friendly way I disagree with some of the things posted. First, I've had poor luck with parachutes... you can read my parachute rant at www.timefold.com/dome -- just scroll down about halfway on the page. Your mileage may vary. Also, I do recommend taking the sharp metal burrs and flash off the ends of your struts. These can be razor sharp and if you have help setting it up, unloading struts, taking it down, etc., not everyone who helps may be aware of how sharp these edges can be. I found that a wire-wheel on a bench grinder made very short work of removing flash and burrs from the ends of the struts. Finally, I think pvc could work and it is somewhat cheaper than EMT, but it is terrible for the planet and the workers who produce it. Metal is at least recyclable and/or "decomposes" (e.g. rusts) and doesn't have to fill a landfill. PVC degrades over a few years and becomes brittle when exposed to heat and UV light. It will eventually break. EMT domes last a lot longer (especially if you keep the ends painted so the exposed, ungalvanized metal doesn't rust).
Again, your experiences may vary: I don't mean to discount them. But I did want to share an opposing view, for consideration. -
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Re: Raising a big dome
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 1:40 PMHello there,
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I had already read your parachute advice page @ timefold, but we bought one anyway because it is by far the cheapest and easiest immediate solution for covering a dome this big. We are going to try it out before we bring the dome out of the backyard. Ideally we will be going with an overlapping-tarp solution because sewing a custom cover for a 32' dome may be more work than we are prepared to do for the first year. Construction of the struts took enough time and $$ (we don't have a huge crew) that we might not be able to afford a fancy covering for the first year. Also, the first use of this dome will be at Burning Flipside in Austin, and not the playa, so we didn't have all the same concerns when considering the initial covering. A 35' cargo parachute was cheap and easily available - we may use it in conjunction with tarps to keep the whole dome covered, but only parts of it rainproof. We'll see what works, but would love to hear what worked for everyone else.
PVC pipes were not considered for this dome for the reasons outlined above - It is not strong enough, is not heat/sun resistant, does not last as long, etc. We want something that will last for at least a few years so budget was not a huge concern. Also I've seen many pictures of collapsed/destroyed PVC domes at Burning Man, and we decided early that was not for us. :) We first built an optimal 2-frequency dome with 3/4 EMT to test the construction and assembly process and make sure everything went well before we started on the big one. The measuring/cutting/smashing/drilling is all done and was pretty easy. All that's left is to smooth the ends, then bend and paint the ~250 struts. I am also making a color-coded scale model 4v dome to help with the assembly in the field.
The top-down building we figured would be the fastest, and that was our big concern this time. This event is only 5 days and our crew is limited, so we don't want to spend an entire day building just this one camp structure if possible. The rental of the lifting gear does cost money which we don't necessarily want to spend, but ultimately we decided on speed and safety, at least for this event. We felt that building it from the bottom up would be possible, but would get more tricky and time consuming as we need to be on ladders or scaffholding to do the top part. We also don't necessarily have 15 people to lift up the dome while we add the next layer of struts, but it's good to know it can be done with enough gorilla power. We are open to other ideas and that's why I asked the group here :)
Has anyone tried to assemble a conduit dome like this in subassemblies? I figured it would be unwieldy to try to lift 20 pound strut assemblies up and bolt them to the existing structure. If someone has done this before and had success, I'd love to hear about it, but we hadn't really considered it. Bottom-up assembly is easy for the 2v dome because it only requires a stepladder for the 5 top/center struts.
Thanks hoco for having your page up - We read all the information we could find on the web and yours was one of the ones we used for background info. I agree with most of your primary concerns about parachutes but it was the easiest and cheapest thing to start with. We used Earl's 'Recharge dome' page (dome.zillabit.com/rechargedome.html) as the basis for our construction since it's basically the same dome and they had already done all the math :) This is where we got the idea to rent the 18ft hoist and it seemed like a great idea for a minimal cost.
Thanks again for the replies, I'm glad to see there are people active here. I will be sure to post some pics when we have built the thing. -
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Re: Raising a big dome
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 3:38 PMI'm glad you found my info to be helpful. I agree that for the flipside event, a parachute might work well. Many of the problems I mention with parachutes are exacerbated by the playa's extreme environment, which will not be the case at flipside.
Also, in the interest of a balance discussion, I have spoken with people at Burning Man who have made parachutes work for them. The things they did that helped was to leave a lot of space near the base of the dome (e.g. 4' at least) for air to blow through. And, they cut many triangular slices in their parachute so it didn't catch as much wind and water, and they also had larger openings in the top than I ever had. So, I agree that it can work, especially if such measures are taken. They can be loud in a windstorm, but if you aren't sleeping in or near it, or there isn't a lot of wind, they are quite enough.
As for building subassemblies, this is something that many dome builders do, but from what I can tell, it is a matter of style. Once you are putting it together and start seeing some patterns, you may find you will request not just a strut, but a collection of related struts, and why not attach them -- it may be easier to put together. But, it is up to you. If you are doing the top-down thing and have a very small team, then there will not be much savings. Building subassemblies is a way to take advantage of having a larger team, because it can be easier to describe how to build a subassembly than it might be to describe how to assemble the dome. Some people do not "get" domes (I don't see why -- they seem pretty straightforward to me) but some just don't. They can't look at the diagram and figure out what struts go where. Bummer. But, they still want to help, so you may be able to say "take two blacks, one red and one blue and connect them all together at one end. That they can do, over and over. That is why subassemblies can help -- it lets non dome-savvy people contribute, and the assemblies can save time during assembly because some "order" is already put in place when you move struts into position to be connected to the dome.
Best of luck with it all -- I'm certain you will succeed. :-)
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Re: Raising a big dome
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 7:09 AMhaving been on a team that built a 40' 4 frequency dome from 2 X 6's and plywood hubs ( in the early 70's ),
a movable staging ( which we also built ) and lots of braces. The structure became more stable as it closed in ( at the top ).
If you check out my picture you'll notice the hubs rotated under compression. We had to make a special "hub wrench" to get the struts aligned symmetrically while tightening the connecting / clamping bolts.
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Re: Raising a big dome
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 4:43 PMHi guys,
I'm one of the coordinators from Carpe Noctem, the theme camp Justin belongs to. I thought you guys might like to see how our test build went. You can see pictures and a brief story at the following link:
nurevolution.net/
The parachute ended up being a total bust, but not necessarily for any other reason than that the real size of the parachute appeared to be around 10 feet smaller in diameter than advertised, do to miscalculation or other error. When we got the chute on top of the dome and centered, we could only pull it down about halfway before its lower band was stretched too taut to progress further.
As you can see from the pictures, one large rectangular tarp with the longest side cut to the length of half your circumference will work well. We would have tied it down but we didn't have all the rope we needed. The structure is still built at this time however, so we will probably go back in a week and see how effectively we can tie the first "mohawk" tarp across it.
Assuming that goes well we will definitely get one if not two more rectangular tarps to line the sides, shackled upwards into the mohawk to seal the deal.
Thanks for the advice from everyone here and elsewhere on the net concerning these amazing structures. Creating it has been a blast and to be honest I couldn't have asked for the test build to go any smoother than it did, and that is largely due to the thorough planning and documentation from other build teams on the net. You all rock! -
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Re: Raising a big dome
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 6:43 PMGreat looking dome. Glad to see it go together smooth. :)
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Re: Raising a big dome
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 7:04 PMDome covering - I like tyvek or truck tarps. See www.weasel.com/dome_cover.html for details.
Dome raising - I have a 24' 5/8 dome that I build from the ground up. It isn't very hard. I think scaffolding would make it faster to
assemble. I have seen recharge-dome's top down building method. I think it is a sound method, though you need the
lift. As an alternative, if you have enough people, you can build from the top down, and have people lift the dome at the bottom
when required. If you have sawhorses higher than a strut, you just lift the dome, and put it on the sawhorse. Then you can build
the next layer downard. I haven't tried this, but it should work, and requires no expensive equipment.
A 32' 1/2 sphere is only a foot higher than my dome. I used one 16 foot ladder. The ladder is a Wenger, IIRC, and folds into
4 pieces. It is rated for 300lbs and costs around $150. Handy to pack in a car.
If you are building from the ground up and tighten down the bolts as you go up, you can rest the ladder on any vertex.
If one or two people support the ladder on the bottom, it is very stable. The only downside is you may have to reach across
a vertex when at the top. A tall, skinny person would be ideal for this.
Having more than one ladder would greatly speed construction, and two people can hand things to each other....