My dome construction has finally started. I've got all my conduit cut in the appropriate lengths and will start squishing ends tomorrow. Anybody know of any places that will rent a 12 ton hydraulic press? I was going to give Northern Tools a try first.
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Re: woohoo
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 8:04 PMIf you are using 3/4" or even 1" EMT, you can use a 1/2 ton arbor press, which you can *buy* for about $29 new at Post Tool (Northern Tools):
www.northerntool.com/webapp/...91_35091
Just stick a length of metal pipe over the small handle to get some leveerage. 3/4" EMT won't work for leverage -- it will bend. Pick up a 3' length of 3/4" water pipe for a few bucks at a local hardware store if you don't have something like it sitting around. And, put some duct tape over the exposed threads because they can be quite sharp.
You can also just crush it in a vise. It is a lot slower, but if you have a vise and money is an issue, it will certainly work. If you are building a 2v you have 65 struts (130 ends) to crush. If you are building a 3v you have 120 struts (240 ends) to crush. You definitely want a press for the 3v.
Heck, you could *hammer* the ends of EMT if you really had no alternative -- it would work. You will need to paint the ends anyway to keep the exposed edges from rusting.
Now, if you're talking steel pipe, that's another thing altogether. You will definitely want a significant press, but since you said "conduit" I assume you mean EMT and you're fine with a small press, vise or a hammer. -
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Re: woohoo
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 9:56 PMwill that work? I mean, I'm sure it will, but will it last for all the struts I need to make. I'm building a 5/8 sphere so that will be 165 struts and 330 'squishes.'
I was just going by the desert domes page. On there it says, "The press in the picture is a 1 ton arbor press bought at Harbor Freight Tools. It was really cheap, but only lasted about 20 squishes. The 3 ton press worked a lot better, but it started to bend after about 150 squishes. If you can afford it, a hydraulic press seems like the way to go."
And yes, it is just EMT that I'm using.
I guess if it breaks I can always return it....they might get a little suspicious after I break 5 or 6 of them though.
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 8:46 AMYo,
I don't know what's up with that statement on the desertdomes page. Maybe they got a dud, but we did not have the same experience. It may have something to do with them welding the arbor plate onto the smasher? I'm not really sure what could "bend." We used that 1-ton arbor press from harbor freight to make a 2v and 4v dome as well as a 3v full sphere - Over 1000 squishes, and it's held up fine. Also used it to smash a few pieces of 1" and 1 1/4" EMT and nothing broke. It was $50. -
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 1:08 PMI tried to use a large pipe fitting vice to prep the ends of dome struts last year and it totally broke after five squishes. I then used a drilling hammer on an anvil for another 65 ends and that was hell!!!!! I finished off with a 20 ton hydraulic press which was still a pain to actuate while holding the emt. I would say at least a 1-2 ton arbor press would be the key
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 1:26 PMI have a 1-ton arbor press, chinese made, I assume. It has lasted for 1 3v dome, about a dozen 2v domes, and about 5 1v domes, and I can't imagine it wouldn't do another 50 2v domes. In other words, it has already done thousands of squishes and will likely do thousands more.
The cheesy handle wasn't worth anything, and it was so short that my arm almost fell of when I tried to use it at first, after a dozen squishes. So, I stuck on a 3' handle for some leverage and then all was well.
The thing is, it doesn't actually take that much force to crush the ends of EMT. Don't go crazy applying thousands of pounds of force. Just use enough to make it flat. With a 3' arm on my 1 ton press, I have to put about 40 lbs of force on it to totally crush the end.
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 7:22 PMI went to northern tools today and got the 1 ton arbor press. I'll definitely be sticking a longer handle on it to get the extra leverage. In this georgia sun I was sweating after only doing a few presses using the small handle.
I'm a little concerned i might have gotten a faulty press though. The one I got was the last one there (of all the presses, 1/2 ton, 1 ton, and 3 ton) so i didn't have anything to compare it to. I can pull part of it apart...i dont know what the term is. If i pull out on the handle though, away from the press, the whole notched cylinder assembly comes out. Is this normal?
Its not a big deal if it is broken, it will still do the job, but just wondering. -
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 8:20 PMAs long as it stays together when you use it I wouldn't worry. I suppose it gives you access to lubricate it, but I can't be certain.
Make yourself some jigs...
One jig holds the strut when one end is crushed, so that the other end ends up in the same plane. Another jig guarantees that you drill at the correct distance from the end of the strut.
I also place blocks of steel and/or wood behind the part of the press that actually comes down and crushes the conduit, to ensure that the the right length of the conduit gets crushed. I also have a piece of wood under the conduit so that the curved shoulder formed by crushing the conduit doesn't cause the strut to move.
There are good pictures of these jigs here: www.timefold.com/domedeck/Page2.html
Actually, while you probably aren't building a dome deck, my dome deck site has a pretty good explanation with many photos of the entire strut making process, including how to avoid splitting your EMT by bending it at a 45 degree angle to the seam (and how to locate the seam).
Shortcut to the good stuff:
www.timefold.com/domedeck/domedeck.html
The actual dome deck web site:
www.timefold.com/guests/ho...age95.html
If you can get some friends to help you out, it will be well worth it. Each person can take on one task:
- cutting struts to the right length
- finding and marking the seams with a sharpie
- crushing the ends of struts
- drilling the ends of struts
- grinding off the flash
- painting the struts (different colors for different lengths, and to protect the cut ends, which will rust otherwise)
- bring pizza and beers to the people working hard in the heat of the day
What I found was that people like to settle into a job they understand, and then the whole team gets into a rhythm. I threw a party when I cut the struts for the Desert nose -- 320+ struts cut from 150 sticks of 3/4" EMT. 180 unique lengths. The team cut the whole set of struts in one day (using my 1-ton press, by the way).
Also, if you plan to use 3/8" hardware (like I do) then I recommend that you acquire a 25/64" cobalt drill bit. This is 1/64"over 3/8", so the bolts fit in just a bit easier. The cobalt drill bit will happily cut through 1000 ends of EMT without needing to be sharpened. You don't need a whole set of cobalt bits (I have one and love it tho). You just need the 25/64" bit.
And, get some mineral oil at a drug store and squirt a tiny amount onto each strut when you drill it. It helps lubricate. Use a slower speed than you would for wood. The oil will keep the bit from overheating and make it last a long, long time.
Also, don't skimp on good paint. Use something like Rustoleum or better. Better to put two lighter coats on than one thick coat that doesn't dry right. And, if you are willing, wipe the ends down with rubbing alcohol right before painting, because the EMT will have oil left over from the drilling process, plus oil from people's hands, tools, etc.
Finally, don't forget to wear protective gear -- the metal is razor sharp when cut, and the little shards of metal from the drilling process make for some nasty metal slivers. Everyone handling conduit except the person painting should wear protective gloves, and anyone grinding or drilling should wear eye protection.
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Re: woohoo
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 9:17 PMall good information. I've come across the nosefish dome deck several times. Great info on your site, thanks!
All the struts have been cut already. I set up a jig similar to one i saw on Eplaya. here is mine:
flickr.com/photos/15788...605545164478/
it fit 4 pieces of conduit very snugly. I had all 165 struts cut in under an hour and a half i would say.
As for crushing the ends of the conduit i'm going to set it up the exact same way you did with putting a block behind it to get the correct lengths. That is kind of a pain in the ass using 3/4" conduit since the ram square on the press isn't big enough to completely flatten the conduit...i'll have to readjust at least 2 or 3 times on each piece to get it perfectly flat.
I had thought about adding a deck to this dome, but I really don't want to get ahead of myself. We'll see how the dome goes this year, then maybe next year I'll do the deck. Plus, conduit (and steel in general) has gotten ridiculously expensive lately. Luckily I got most of mine at an 'industrial garage sale' for $2.25 a stick. I was in HD yesterday and the price has gone up almost two dollars in the last month...its now $5.75. Crazy!
One last thing. You mentioned using a 25/64" drill bit to make assembly easier. I was thinking about going all the way to a 7/16" bit. Would that to big? -
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Re: woohoo
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 6:16 AMWe used a 3/8" bit and 3/8" hardware for our 2v and 4v domes and did not have any problems with assembly - I would recommend this. When using 1/4" hardware on 1/2" EMT I found I needed to use 1/64" bigger bit for a good fit, but on the bigger domes we used a 3/8 bit and hardware with no problems.
Nice jig. Jigs will save your ass and you will not regret the time it took to make all the pieces come out exactly the same!
The press is supposed to come apart like you describe 1) for lubrication - probably not necessary for a long time - and 2) so you can rotate the handle to get it at an appropriate point for smashing whatever kind of pipe you have. I had to rotate the handle when pressing larger 1" + EMT. There is a little "collar" piece that goes on the handle to stop it from coming out of the press - if that's missing you want to get it replaced (maybe it's still sitting in the box?) I can describe this further if you need. Regarding the handle, you definitely want a piece of pipe on the end of the handle for extra leverage. 3/4 EMT as a lever will bend some, but I used one 3-foot piece for 1000+ smashes and it did not bend so much as to become unusable. Plus, you have like 1000 feet of it just sitting there so why not.
I echo pretty much everything that hoco says - Although we used a 3/8 dewalt drill bit ($10) and it had no problem drilling 500+ holes, and got a nice snug fit on everything. We also used a few drops of mineral oil on each hole drilled. You want a drill press for this. Some experimentation will be necessary to get this process down. Wear gloves to protect your hands, and eye protection is recommended as well for the drilling.
Good luck, make sure to let us know how it turns out =)h -
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Re: woohoo
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 6:40 AMsounds like I'm missing that collar piece that keeps it from sliding out. There is another Northern Tools sort of close to me. I'll see if they have another 1 ton press. It wouldn't kill me to use it as is, but I might as well get one that works.
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
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Re: woohoo
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 10:33 AMYes, I think 7/16th is too big, but it would certainly work. Another poster mentioned that the 3/8 bit was fine, and I agree that it will work fine.
I like the 1/64" oversize hole, but perhaps that is just personal preference. In all my dome making experience I've found myself in all kinds of positions, hanging upside down, leaning out over partly built structures, straining to reach that vertex that is just a bit too far away... When I have a bolt in my hand the oversized hole means I don't have to align the bolt quite as perfectly perpendicular to the tab on the strut to get it to go in. It can go in at a slight angle and still work, which makes my job a little easier. Your mileage may vary. -
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Re: woohoo
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 5:24 PMall of my strut ends are pressed! what a pain in the ass that was. The 1 ton arbor press worked like a charm, although i do wish that the block was bigger than 1" square. To get the 3/4" conduit completely flat required me to make 4 or more presses on each end. Glad its done!
I found someone with a drill press to use which saves me a lot of money, i really didn't want to have to buy one just for making this dome. I'll probably start the drilling next week when I'm less busy. Should be putting the dome together in two weeks!
Thanks again for all the advice yall. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: woohoo
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 5:45 PMYea, it takes 4 presses for each end. 65 struts = 130 ends = 520 pulls.
I made a 3v 5/8 dome with my 1 ton press -- 120 struts = 240 ends == 960 pulls... all in one day. The next day I could barely move my arm. It felt like someone gave me 10 charly horses in the same spot. And then, twenty more. It hurt so bad I was almost in tears all day.
I pretty much stick to 1v and 2v domes these days, and they are usually for other people, so I get someone else to run the press. There's always someone feeling macho...
When you drill your job will be made simpler with the jig shown here (which you've probably already seen):
www.timefold.com/domedeck/Page3.html
One thing I would add is that the metal shards cut by the drill bit are really nasty and get everywhere. If you have a shop vac, set it up and vacuum up the shards after every 10 or so struts to keep them from getting everywhere. The oil actually helps keep them from flying (a little). They embed themselves in clothes, skin, your workbench, nearby equipment... they end up everywhere, and each one is a potential injury. Do not attempt to brush them aside with your hand! Treat them like tiny razor blades. If you are using the drill press at your friend's house, he will think highly of you if you *don't* leave behind a mess of razor-sharp metal shards for him to clean up. :-) -
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Re: woohoo
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 4:37 PMDone!
I finally got all my struts drilled and painted. Haven't gotten the chance to gather everyone to assemble it yet, but we'll hopefully be doing that soon. I really won't be able to stop worrying about everything not fitting correctly until we get it completely together. I just put one of the big hexagons together and it fit pretty well....but still, I can't wait to see it completed.
I was unable to find any cobalt drill bits in the 25/64" size so I went w/ 2 black oxide drill bits instead. I came so close to getting through all of the holes on 2 bits but the second bit dulled down w/ 10 struts left to go....of course. If i did it again I'd def take some time to find better drill bits.
Thanks for all the help everyone! -
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Re: woohoo
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 7:41 AMSo we just did a test run and everything fits together great. This was the first time that we put on all of the billboard vinyl panels and it looks so much better than I had imagined. Seriously can't wait to bring it out to the playa. Here is a video of us putting the panels on...i'm not sure if i've seen any other domes do it this way, but i think its going to work really well.
www.youtube.com/watch
Thanks again for all the help everyone! -
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Re: woohoo
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 9:49 AM
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